Thursday, May 17, 2007
Healing Service
I wanted to make a brief comment about the awesome healing service that we had earlier this month. The elder board is so amazed and delighted and humbled by the people of Oak Hills whenever we get the opportunity to pray with and for you. We spent much of our last Elder Board meeting just talking about what courage and honesty and faith so many of you showed to come to the front of the church and ask for prayers of healing. We prayed for physical, emotional, relational, and financial healing, heard confessions and pleas for wisdom and direction and were so touched that we were able to be a part of it all. It was a great privilege to ask God to take action in each situation and know that he is able and willing to do it. In fact, I reflected at one point during the service that God had already taken action in those people's lives who got up out of their seats and came forward to share their burdens and be anointed. If you are one of those people, I hope you take comfort from the knowledge that the Spirit was stirring in you even then. However, we realize it can be an awkward experience to go forward and stand waiting for someone to be available, and most likely many people who felt the desire to be prayed for just couldn't do it. I'd like to remind you that the Elder Board prays for healing up in the prayer room before our first meeting of the month (Second Wednesday from 6-7 pm). Just contact Sharon to get on the schedule or show up at 6 outside the prayer room on the second floor. We'd love to hear your story and pray for God to do his work in your life!
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9 comments:
Wow, that's a lot of anger! Well, I realize going into this that my opinions may be veiwed as jaded because my father is an elder. For that reason I considered posting under anonymous, but there is just something about having the integrity to own your words.
So, here it goes. Lets start with "Many good people being used due to their unability to say no... overworked and unappeciated they left". I have a few comments about this little gem. First, THIS IS OUR CHURCH. Not the staffs church, not the pastors church, not even the elder boards church. OURS. If there is work to be done it is our work to do. If it is not being done, I think it is more then appropriate for the staff to ask people to help out. If said people have the inability to know their own limits, I think that is on them. If said people are becoming burnt out because they are not getting the appreciation they feel they deserve, I think they had the wrong perspective to begin with.
Quote # 2
"Its no wonder week after week the income is less than the outgo according to the church bulliten".
I think a quick scan of some bible verses on tithing might be quite enlightening. As it turns out tithing is not a means be which you show appreciation for the church. You are not buying a ticket to the show. How closely the pastors and elders are meeting your expectations should not be expressed through tithing.
Finally to address the "click". This is a hard for two reasons. First, because there is just no good way to convince a person that their fantasy is in fact fantasy. For example I have no evidence to suggest that gnomes do not steal my socks out of the dryer. Socks do go missing. This is always a problem when trying to prove a universal negative. The Second reason this is a hard issue to address is because I do agree that our pastors could be a little better at spending time with the members of the church body. I would like to have a more personal relationship with the church leadership. The thing is, I think they feel the same way. No one is perfect and this is an area where Kent and Mike both seem to struggle. But let me be clear. I have been attending Oak Hills as long as there has been an Oak Hills. Both of my perants have been in leadership for the duration of that time. If there is a click, it is so exclusive that we have not been invited.
One final thing. For the sake of the argument lets pretend that gnomes steal my socks and there is a pastor/elder click. Maybe its even the fourth branch of the tri-lateral commission. I would bet that you Mr. Anonymous, spend a little more time with some of the people at Oak Hills than others. Lets say that as a rough estimate 800 people attend Oak Hills. I am guessing you don't spend an equal amount or time with all 800 of them. I think that even if you are a pastor you are allowed to have friends. You listed the number at 2 dozen or so families. I would say that is pretty darn good. If I were to try and split my time between 24 families I would lose my mind.
I apologize if I did not treat you opinions with kid gloves but the "elders" and "elders spouses" you refer to, are people I call Dad and Mom and everyone else you chose to so cavalerly attack I call my church family.
"As long as this deliberate refusal to understand things from above, even where such understanding is possible, continues, it is idle to talk of any final victory over materialism."
--The Weight of Glory
This post was originally the first comment posted, but was deleted and re-posted by me with a few specific references to individuals removed. I don't mind anonymous postings as long as we can remain polite to each other.
Valerie
Anonymous said...
I have attended Oak Hills for about 10 years now. Because my wife loves this church and her friendships we still come, but finally there is a venue to post frustration with the elder board and the pastors of this church.
After working to upgrade the portables for the tremendous growth we were experiencing, looking back at the failed experience and listening to all the failed parishoners paraded across the stage whining about their failures, I guess I should have known there was something deeply wrong here. Many good people being used due to their unability to say no... overworked and unappeciated they left.
Your little click and the bad business done by elders, elders spouses has been enough.
When can we have a get real sermon that is about God, and the church family instead of about the pastors and their little click of elders.
Its no wonder week after week the income is less than the outgo according to the church bulliten. You are killing this church, and its is very sad, as the 2 pastors, though very charismatic and talented continue to let this church bleed a cold slow death.
I pray for you all every day the you come before the congregation and apologize for your selfish past and open up your hearts to more than the 2 dozen or so families in your core click to let the rest of us in....
June 22, 2007 7:52 AM
Exercpts from Wikipedia Article “Flaming (Interenet)”
The full article can be found here.
Flaming is the act of sending or posting messages that are deliberately hostile and insulting, usually in the social context of a discussion board on the Internet.
Flamers usually call their flames justified attacks.
A flame may have elements of a normal message, but is distinguished by its intent. A flame is typically not intended to be constructive, to further clarify a discussion, or to persuade other people. The motive for flaming is often not dialectic, but rather social or psychological. Sometimes, flamers are attempting to assert their authority, or establish a position of superiority. Other times, the flamer is simply a closed-minded or biased individual whose conviction that his is the only valid opinion leads him to personally attack any "dissenters."
Most often however, flames are angry or insulting messages transmitted by people who have strong feelings about a subject. Finally, some consider flaming to be a great way to let off steam, though the receiving party may be less than pleased.
Mr. Anonymous,
I’m not sure quite how to express just what impact your post had on me, or others who might happen upon it including our “2 pastors” who are apparantly bleeding their Church to death. I say their, because this is obviously how you feel. Perhaps this is where you might spend some time reflecting. I wouldn’t normally take hand in such discourse as this, but as soon as you start attacking my Church and pastors, I cannot stand idle.
I hope you read this, because unlike Erik’s gracious post, I have no intent of pulling any punches. So let’s go to school.
“Flaming 101”
“Anonymous said...
I have attended Oak Hills for about 10 years now. Because my wife loves this church and her friendships we still come, but finally there is a venue to post frustration with the elder board and the pastors of this church.”
I am glad that you and your wife faithfully attend Church. I hope this is an indicator of some sincerity in your thoughts and comments, although I failed utterly to arrive at a point in your flame. For the sake of argument I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you have already pursued all the proper “venues” for frustration with a Church or the Church’s leadership, and now this is simply a venue where you wish to spread your sentiments to other Oak Hillians. I am going to assume that you have first reflected on your percieved problems with my Church, and through prayer asked for God’s guidance in how to correctly attempt to resolve these preobelms. I am going to assume that your have spoken to Mike and Kent privately, individually, and together. And I am going to assume that you have gone to the Elder Board and expressed your deepest concern for the welfare of my Church. Because only after all of these preper venues have been pursued, should you have the odasity to post such a blatent attack on the Leadership of my Church in a venue where you could offend, pursuade, or “turn off” other Oak Hillians, or other seekers in My Church who should happen upon this.
“After working to upgrade the portables for the tremendous growth we were experiencing, looking back at the failed experience that brought Mike back to the church as a pastor and listening to all the failed parishoners paraded across the stage whining about their failures, I guess I should have known there was something deeply wrong here. Many good people being used due to their unability to say no... overworked and unappeciated they left.”
It is obvious that you consider yourself “overworked and unappeciated” (apreciated?). I am forced to suspect that this sentement does not exist soley for you in this Church. If you can attend Oak hills for ten years and still feel that proper “appreciation” is due to you, then I have to assume that you choose not to understand the concepts of sacrifice, love, or service. During the transition from portables to our current campus the direction of the Church had shifted from “seeker sensitive” to a growing Church in which ALL members where repeatedly and openly invited to attend meetings and give input towards the direction of the Church, and the best way to help a Church of young Christians grow to maturity. I am going to assume that you attended these meetings, and that you expressed your discontent.
“Your little click and the bad business done by elders, elders spouses, and of course the one church member who claims hes a painting contractor that doesnt finish his work has been enough.”
Being in a “click” is a very dangerous thing to accuse anybody of. In any social format of this magnitude (let’s use Erik’s estimate of 800) smaller social circles happen, this is part of forming meaningful relationships. “Clicks” are when there is an attitude of exclusivity and an unwillingness to accept others. This just simply isn’t the case with my pastors or Board of Elders. They are always there for me, and other people who are very close whenever we come to them. But this is the key; you cannot in sane mind accuse someone of shunning you if you haven’t made a distinguished effort to reach out to them. I’m sorry you feel on the outside, but it is my strong suspicion that you have put yourself there.
“When can we have a get real sermon that is about God, and the church family instead of about the pastors and their little click of elders.”
I’m sorry, but do you attend Oak Hills? Or some other Church? This one is so far out there that I need you to give some sort of basis or example or anything before I can begin to understand in what dimension you find this statement to be true.
“Its no wonder week after week the income is less than the outgo according to the church bulliten. You are killing this church, and its is very sad, as the 2 pastors, though very charismatic and talented continue to let this church bleed a cold slow death.”
I am going to assume that you give sacrificially to Oak Hills Church. Because if you dare to make a statement such as this, I am going to assume that you have already removed both the plank, and the speck from you own eye. Unfortunately this is the state of affairs in many Churches today. Many people are very willing to attend a Church from week to week for years, maybe even ten years, without ever giving to the Church in any form, monetary or not. Yet they don’t understand why the Church isn’t able to dish out everything for them and make their life easier. Have we forgotten that we go to Church to serve God, our Brothers in Christ, and the world? Have we forgotten that the purpose if the Church is not to see what it can do for us, but how we can be God’s hand in the lives of unbelievers? And as a side note: I suppose you already know that over 90% of the contributions that sustain my Church are made by less than 10% of the people who call themselves Oak Hillians. And I assume you are in that 10%.
“I pray for you all every day the you come before the congregation and apologize for your selfish past and open up your hearts to more than the 2 dozen or so families in your core click to let the rest of us in....”
Some of Gods greatest gifts are unanswered prayers.
I make all these assumptions, because I want to believe that you have a very clear purpose for your message. I just wish you would make it a little clearer, because to me, you just seem like a pissed off and bitter person, and I don’t want to believe that anybody who is a sincere follower of Christ for over ten years could act as such. If you have a legitimate concern for the direction of my Church, or you have a substantial problem with the Leadership or other Brothers in Christ, I hope that you can begin to handle them in an appropriate way that might actually lead to some sort of resolution. I want this because when you learn this, you will have made a first step in the direction of self-acceptance.
Anonymous brings up one of the reasons that we have this blog: sometimes the staff and elders seem inaccessable. We hope these blogs can be a forum for all kinds of dialogue and interaction between the pastors and the elder board, not just a venue to express frustration, of course, but sometimes that is okay, too.
I have heard the comment that "Anonymous" makes, that there is an inner clique at Oak Hills, before and it is difficult to know how to respond. These are people who brought meals and cleaned my house when I had my children, prayed with me when I was diagnosed with cancer, and celebrated with me at the recent wedding of my son. They were the first friends I had here and I have spent twenty-two years working side by side with them learning what it means to be a Christian and doing ministry together. Is it a clique? It feels more like a family to me, but then I am not outside looking in. I'm sure that the bitterness expressed in the post is felt by others as well, and that would be a good discussion to have. Over the years, many individuals and families have been added to my "family" of friends here and I treasure them. How did we link our lives together? We worked in children's classrooms together, we met in Bible Studies, we went on Formation retreats, we joined the same One Thing group. Basically, in joining up to do church life together, we crept into each others hearts.
If I may address a specific comment to "Anonymous", it seems like you have stuck with Oak Hills through thick and thin (10 years) and I think that says something about you and your wife. I hope you continue to stay engaged and to care about this church, the Bride of Christ. I also am glad to know that the elder board is in your prayers and hope that you will expand them to include a request for God's guidance and wisdom as we lead.
Well --- It's early on a Sunday morning and i have been following this latest little interchange on the elder blog with no small amount of interest. I must get ready for worship here soon, but i wanted to mention two things.
1) To Mr. Anonymous. I need not add anything to the responses you have already received. Your very strong statements struck a chord with a few people and you are a wise person if you listen carefully to them. But in addition, I want you to know that i would very much enjoy a face to face conversation with you to address the very real objective issues you have brought up. I mean this. And if you desire to remain anonymous, i would protect your identity from anyone other than myself.
2) Eric and Jeremiah. I can hardly express what your wonderful posts meant to me. I am not so foolish to believe for an instant that you are fully behind all that goes on at Oak Hills. But your enthusiastic defense of this little expression of the Bride of Christ, known as Oak Hills Church, was one of the most encouraging and delightful things i have ever read. It struck me in a very profound way, that this is your church --- and if you mess with your church --- you're messing with something very precious to you. So no cheap shots allowed. After reading what you both have written, i found myself more motivated than ever to serve Oak Hills and to believe in her and to be vigorously hopeful about the future. We must have done something right, if young men like you are some of the products of this church. So thank you gentlemen. I know you both have your own criticisms of the church, but you love her, and we are on the same team, and because of that, you make being a pastor a very very enjoyable vocation. You both have opened my eyes to a larger and more robustly attractive view of the church. and for this i am very grateful.
Kenty
Anonymous 237 Words, 2 personal responses of 620 and 1424 words each. Who is flaming who. On top of editing where there were no specific names used.
I do not want any "credit" for attending or "appreciation" for deeds. The BEST ADVICE I have taken from Kent was if I did'nt like the direction my tithe was going at OH, then to tithe it elsewhere and I have, as have many other folks.
Perhaps including the congregation in a fundamental shift in how church was done here after taking the donations for the building is too much to ask, but that took it out of it being "OUR CHURCH" and made it the elder board's and pastor's church.
I'll remain anonymous and no longer post here either as the elder board blog response it the only one worth crediting.
The children and Kenty supporting their anger at my expression is exactly what I would should have expected.
It is very infortunate that a face to face anonymous meeting with our senior pastor would be a waste of my time and allow him to know who I am and that is something I don't wish to risk
Anonymous Oak Hills Supporter is signing off...
Mr. Anonymous, I think myabe I should clearify some of my words, as you seem to have missunderstood their intent. I was not trying to suggests that you personally are seeking appritiation for any work you have done or that you do not tithe appropriatlly. It would be inapropriate to do so, as I do not know who you are, or what decisions you have made. I think if you carfully read my words you will see this. I was attempting to point out that I think your words are flawed. The only things that I directed at you and not at your words was the point about having the integrity to own your words (I see you have chosen not to do this)and of course the quote from C.S. Lewis.
You do make a compeling argument when you say "Perhaps including the congregation in a fundamental shift in how church was done here after taking the donations for the building is too much to ask, but that took it out of it being "OUR CHURCH" and made it the elder board's and pastor's church." However I do feel that this argument to is flawed aswell. In choosing the Elder Board and giving them the power to choose our pastors we picked them as our leaders. I think that if they were to feel that God was leading the church in a different direction and not lead us in said direction, they would be failing us. I do not think that by collecting tithing for a building they lock them selves in a course that is beyond the reach of Gods guidence. I think there is an appropraite balance in which the church is ours but we allow the elders and pastors to lead it. Valarie recently wrote and excellet Blog on sumbission I highly recomend.
-One of the Children
P.S. I appologize but I was home schooled and never learned how to spell.
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